We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

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We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

red1

http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/asianuniversityrankings/asian_university_rankings_top_200_universities/

What more in the top 100 of the world
http://www.topuniversities.com/university_rankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/

Odds should challenge you. Do it not because it is easy, but because it
is hard <-- stole from John F. Kennedy's speech.

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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

sweemeng ng
Thats the issue isn't it.....
Concern about the rating.

Not to mention, local universities job is to provide workforce to the industry, the easiest way possible....
which is really sad, because not just they did not do that. Thats not a university job for the first place. They got more than just giving the industry


On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 6:17 PM, red1 <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/asianuniversityrankings/asian_university_rankings_top_200_universities/

What more in the top 100 of the world
http://www.topuniversities.com/university_rankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/

Odds should challenge you. Do it not because it is easy, but because it
is hard <-- stole from John F. Kennedy's speech.




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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

red1

sweemeng ng wrote:
> Thats the issue isn't it.....
> Concern about the rating.
>
> Not to mention, local universities job is to provide workforce to the
> industry, the easiest way possible....
> which is really sad, because not just they did not do that. Thats not
> a university job for the first place. They got more than just giving
> the industry
>
 What is interesting in the ranking criteria is that original research
scores 60% of the marks whereas employability of the grads score 10%.
That is what set the best apart from the rest - not cari makan but cari
ilmu.

A world class graduate is one who goes to university to learn how to
make the world a better place, not find for him/herself a better place.

Open Source is ours to change the world, not our childish rebellious
escapism.

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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

red1
In reply to this post by red1

Finally found our top Malaysian university - UM at 230th ranking
http://www.topuniversities.com/university_rankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/fullrankings/

UTM is 356th.


red1 wrote:
> http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/asianuniversityrankings/asian_university_rankings_top_200_universities/
>
> What more in the top 100 of the world
> http://www.topuniversities.com/university_rankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/
>
> Odds should challenge you. Do it not because it is easy, but because it
> is hard <-- stole from John F. Kennedy's speech.
 

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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

Mohd Hidzuan Zainul Hashim
Sedih sungguh UiTM x de dalam senarai.. :-(
...............................................................
To follow the path, look to the master,
follow the master, walk with the master,
see through the master, become the master.

Selasih Net Enterprise
"we never sleep, we just park our head"


Sent from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia


On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 9:03 PM, red1 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Finally found our top Malaysian university - UM at 230th ranking
http://www.topuniversities.com/university_rankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/fullrankings/

UTM is 356th.


red1 wrote:
> http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/asianuniversityrankings/asian_university_rankings_top_200_universities/
>
> What more in the top 100 of the world
> http://www.topuniversities.com/university_rankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/
>
> Odds should challenge you. Do it not because it is easy, but because it
> is hard <-- stole from John F. Kennedy's speech.





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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

red1

Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
> Sedih sungguh UiTM x de dalam senarai.. :-(
> ...............................................................
UKM - 250th
USM - 313th
UPM - 320th

UiTM elek.. cari sampai list 501+ tak jumpa gak.

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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

red1
When UM a few years back about top 100 i did propose to do ADempiere there (before ADempiere was born) but they always busy, busy, busy.. with the kain rentang menunjukkan UM top 100 dalam dunia. Sekarang jemput saya pun saya rasa menjatuhkan nama ADempiere pasal ADempiere dah no.1

Di UTM pun saya sudah naik turun sejak 7 tahun yang silam. Dah kenal dari Dr Noraini (Dekan Entrepreneur di Semarak), Dr Zuhaimi, Dekan Matematik Skudai, Dato Zaini Ujang, TNC. .. MTDC, Skit, dan lain lain lagi.

Saya rasa Malaysia kita ini lumayan, ada ketua projek utama dunia naik turun berjumpa mereka pun tak perasan.

red1 wrote:
Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
  
Sedih sungguh UiTM x de dalam senarai.. :-(
...............................................................
    
UKM - 250th
USM - 313th
UPM - 320th

UiTM elek.. cari sampai list 501+ tak jumpa gak.
 

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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

sweemeng ng
FYI a ex-UM student here.....So I understands....

UM just don't cut out to have the culture, and that time, they actually gaming the system....
They don't deserve it..

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 10:44 PM, red1 <[hidden email]> wrote:
When UM a few years back about top 100 i did propose to do ADempiere there (before ADempiere was born) but they always busy, busy, busy.. with the kain rentang menunjukkan UM top 100 dalam dunia. Sekarang jemput saya pun saya rasa menjatuhkan nama ADempiere pasal ADempiere dah no.1

Di UTM pun saya sudah naik turun sejak 7 tahun yang silam. Dah kenal dari Dr Noraini (Dekan Entrepreneur di Semarak), Dr Zuhaimi, Dekan Matematik Skudai, Dato Zaini Ujang, TNC. .. MTDC, Skit, dan lain lain lagi.

Saya rasa Malaysia kita ini lumayan, ada ketua projek utama dunia naik turun berjumpa mereka pun tak perasan.


red1 wrote:
Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
  
Sedih sungguh UiTM x de dalam senarai.. :-(
...............................................................
    
UKM - 250th
USM - 313th
UPM - 320th

UiTM elek.. cari sampai list 501+ tak jumpa gak.
 




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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

red1

sweemeng ng wrote:
> FYI a ex-UM student here.....So I understands....
 
i think one of the malady is that the grads no longer have to do degree
theses. They can choose to do project work. Is this still true?

Thesis writing to me is hard, and that is why we must do it. To
formulate an own theory and see it through intellectually is the
greatest gift the mind can indulge in.

As for me, i graduate from the University of Life and listen to
Professor Hard Knocks. And i am seeing my thesis through - that there
must be a university for ERP and that it will one day overrun the USD60
billion market of SAP. I have spoken to many many people and lots
agreed. But the decision-makers just couldn't figure it out. Like you
say it is just not in the mental climate. *sigh*

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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

Mohd Hidzuan Zainul Hashim
bro red1..

lupakan Uni lain.. masih ada AeU.. sekurang-kurangnya.. utk buat masa ini.. janganlah takut seketika sahaja... hehehe

...............................................................
To follow the path, look to the master,
follow the master, walk with the master,
see through the master, become the master.

Selasih Net Enterprise
"we never sleep, we just park our head"


Sent from Petaling Jaya, Malaysia


On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 11:47 PM, red1 <[hidden email]> wrote:

sweemeng ng wrote:
> FYI a ex-UM student here.....So I understands....

i think one of the malady is that the grads no longer have to do degree
theses. They can choose to do project work. Is this still true?

Thesis writing to me is hard, and that is why we must do it. To
formulate an own theory and see it through intellectually is the
greatest gift the mind can indulge in.

As for me, i graduate from the University of Life and listen to
Professor Hard Knocks. And i am seeing my thesis through - that there
must be a university for ERP and that it will one day overrun the USD60
billion market of SAP. I have spoken to many many people and lots
agreed. But the decision-makers just couldn't figure it out. Like you
say it is just not in the mental climate. *sigh*




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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

red1

Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
> bro red1..
>
> lupakan Uni lain.. masih ada AeU.. sekurang-kurangnya.. utk buat masa
> ini.. janganlah takut seketika sahaja... hehehe

AeU, entah keberapa rankingnya kerana baru je terbit.. tapi ada lagi
berita baik. Lagi sebuah IPTS ingin turut melakukan research centre
untuk ADempiere. Acheh pula mungkin buka peluang universiti pertamanya
berdasarkan FOSS. Semua masih dalam berbincangan. Akan dihebohkan
sekiranya jadi.

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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

sweemeng ng
The real issue is, what research, there is no research....

There is more to CS than Enterprise Software. Though it is equally worth studying
And there is many interesting stuff in computer science. program validation, concurrency, AI, kernel level design, etc. Even application of existing theory is fascinating. Nope, none is happening.

I am hoping to learn to understand how OS works, or how to write a compiler when go to university. Instead I just got to learn something that I already learned before I got into uni.

University that I know of, just turn into a vocational school, and it don't even do a proper job at that.

SAD, real sad

2009/9/26 red1 <[hidden email]>

Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
> bro red1..
>
> lupakan Uni lain.. masih ada AeU.. sekurang-kurangnya.. utk buat masa
> ini.. janganlah takut seketika sahaja... hehehe

AeU, entah keberapa rankingnya kerana baru je terbit.. tapi ada lagi
berita baik. Lagi sebuah IPTS ingin turut melakukan research centre
untuk ADempiere. Acheh pula mungkin buka peluang universiti pertamanya
berdasarkan FOSS. Semua masih dalam berbincangan. Akan dihebohkan
sekiranya jadi.




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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

sweemeng ng
DId I tell you that when they say real world. Many lecturer never in one..
It is in university when I heard comments that this is not used, or that is not used.

Place of learning my foot. It is not even on the priority list. Exam is, learning is not. In fact learning useful thing not in exam, is way below in priority. School politics got much bigger attention

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:52 AM, sweemeng ng <[hidden email]> wrote:
The real issue is, what research, there is no research....

There is more to CS than Enterprise Software. Though it is equally worth studying
And there is many interesting stuff in computer science. program validation, concurrency, AI, kernel level design, etc. Even application of existing theory is fascinating. Nope, none is happening.

I am hoping to learn to understand how OS works, or how to write a compiler when go to university. Instead I just got to learn something that I already learned before I got into uni.

University that I know of, just turn into a vocational school, and it don't even do a proper job at that.

SAD, real sad

2009/9/26 red1 <[hidden email]>


Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
> bro red1..
>
> lupakan Uni lain.. masih ada AeU.. sekurang-kurangnya.. utk buat masa
> ini.. janganlah takut seketika sahaja... hehehe

AeU, entah keberapa rankingnya kerana baru je terbit.. tapi ada lagi
berita baik. Lagi sebuah IPTS ingin turut melakukan research centre
untuk ADempiere. Acheh pula mungkin buka peluang universiti pertamanya
berdasarkan FOSS. Semua masih dalam berbincangan. Akan dihebohkan
sekiranya jadi.





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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

Mohammed Firdaus
Swee Meng,

Can't be as bad as a learning institution at TPM.......

Thanks,

Mohammed Firdaus

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:55 AM, sweemeng ng <[hidden email]> wrote:
DId I tell you that when they say real world. Many lecturer never in one..
It is in university when I heard comments that this is not used, or that is not used.

Place of learning my foot. It is not even on the priority list. Exam is, learning is not. In fact learning useful thing not in exam, is way below in priority. School politics got much bigger attention


On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:52 AM, sweemeng ng <[hidden email]> wrote:
The real issue is, what research, there is no research....

There is more to CS than Enterprise Software. Though it is equally worth studying
And there is many interesting stuff in computer science. program validation, concurrency, AI, kernel level design, etc. Even application of existing theory is fascinating. Nope, none is happening.

I am hoping to learn to understand how OS works, or how to write a compiler when go to university. Instead I just got to learn something that I already learned before I got into uni.

University that I know of, just turn into a vocational school, and it don't even do a proper job at that.

SAD, real sad

2009/9/26 red1 <[hidden email]>


Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
> bro red1..
>
> lupakan Uni lain.. masih ada AeU.. sekurang-kurangnya.. utk buat masa
> ini.. janganlah takut seketika sahaja... hehehe

AeU, entah keberapa rankingnya kerana baru je terbit.. tapi ada lagi
berita baik. Lagi sebuah IPTS ingin turut melakukan research centre
untuk ADempiere. Acheh pula mungkin buka peluang universiti pertamanya
berdasarkan FOSS. Semua masih dalam berbincangan. Akan dihebohkan
sekiranya jadi.








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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

red1
In reply to this post by sweemeng ng
Thanks SweeMeng for such insights, cos i never go to university. I can hardly stand the school system. They do not have subjects i wanted - astronomy, occult science, psychology, sexology, historical flames, ancient philosophy to name a few. I mean who can study the boring sejarah penjajah dan nasionalisma?

I choose to dropout and see the real world myself. It was tough. I was a wanderer for many years. Learnt to sell air tebu tepi jalan - minum sendiri jika hujan, pasar malam, penceramah pelbagai jurusan, got cheated by common cons.

About R&D, you hit on many nails. Indeed those that call themselves R&D are mere C&P (copy & paste). Like the saying goes, "Good Artists Copy. Great Artists Steal".
Indeed CS starts with the machine and advanced thru the OS and compiler. I bought  a book on the JVM like compiler and studied that a bit and must say it is simpler ta machine level. I was a good C&P Cobol programmer in early 80s. But the challenge today is to rule an empire, a global one and whack not one machine version or two, but some real legends.

SAP anyone?

red1

sweemeng ng wrote:
DId I tell you that when they say real world. Many lecturer never in one..
It is in university when I heard comments that this is not used, or that is not used.

Place of learning my foot. It is not even on the priority list. Exam is, learning is not. In fact learning useful thing not in exam, is way below in priority. School politics got much bigger attention

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:52 AM, sweemeng ng <[hidden email]> wrote:
The real issue is, what research, there is no research....

There is more to CS than Enterprise Software. Though it is equally worth studying
And there is many interesting stuff in computer science. program validation, concurrency, AI, kernel level design, etc. Even application of existing theory is fascinating. Nope, none is happening.

I am hoping to learn to understand how OS works, or how to write a compiler when go to university. Instead I just got to learn something that I already learned before I got into uni.

University that I know of, just turn into a vocational school, and it don't even do a proper job at that.

SAD, real sad
 

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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

Boh Yap
In reply to this post by Mohammed Firdaus

hi all,

all this debate on the quality of our esteemed universities has been
simmering for so long I just can't refuse not to join in... ;-)

Warning: sarcasm, satire, wit, true facts and logic are all mixed in
here... let's have some healthy debate!

(I am also reposting this to the python.my list, its too good to be
left to waste...

UM used to be good, that was in the days when Msia only had a handful
on Unis, USM, SPM, UKM... Now we have ...how many? 20, 30?...

Yes, edu especally Uni has gone down the tubes in Msia, in that
respect we're becoming a 'banana republic'... when I was Philipines
quite a few years ago, they have a 'University' in a block of shop
house, I thought that was pretty uncool, but then now we have that in
Malaysia. That's progress!

Why that's uncool, well for one thing, you cannot provide a conducive
knowledge-based  environment. How inspiring can it be staring at
another drab building, and hanging out at the local mamak to discuss a
momentous world class technopreneureal idea.... I think not. Hey you
can't even find a basement to start off your project in...  (like
Google, Yahoo, Youtube...)

Besides shophouse don't make good locations for data-centres,
supercomputing centre (lousy powersupply and cooling), you can't have
a genetics lab (bio hazard!) or a nuclear research lab (nope I don't
think you can fit your heavy-particle collider in here..)... so forget
about 'high' tech. So such a facillities can only be a 'low' tech
'degree mils', churn out as many blur (as sotong) grads as you can.

The other problem of course is you have blur educators (by this I
don't only lay the blame only on lecturers and academic staff but also
those in charge of education policy... they are the ones who determine
the agenda!) Also as someone pointed out, our professors don't publish
papers, well we can't really blame them. The shophouse scenario is not
very inspirational, and they can't have a fancy lab in those tiny
buildings anyway. Also I guess there are also no equivalent peer
reviewed publications like Science  and Nature (where world famous
professors  and Nobel Laurettes publish their papers) in Bahasa
Malaysia...

Talking about 'frightening' scenarios, when visiting a friend who is a
 Assc. Professor in a local Uni, I was handed a syllabus and asked to
guess what year was it for. A quick glance through it and I said
perhaps pre-U or 1st year. Nope, wrong he said, its 3rd Year! Thats
how low standards are! So I asked surely you are unhappy about this
level, can't you teach at a higher level, no, was his reply, the
Lembaga Accredition Negara sets the policy and everyone has to
follow... and that's the standard!

Duh... what does a bunch of bureaucrats know about Comp Sc. Not a lot
it seems!  (this happened abt 3 yrs ago). Now it seems its a bit
better, but they are letting Microsoft determine the syllabus,
groan...

Red1 hit the nail on the spot, a Uni is to 'Cari Ilmu' not 'Cari
makan' (for both students and lecturers!) but we have since lost the
ideal. Also, our edu system are like mushroom farms - "keep the
students/mushrooms in the dark and feed them a lot of sh*t". So all
this spoon-feeding produces a bunch of workers who are totlly without
initiative and waiting to be told what to do.

Let me back that up with another anecdote, a friend who was embarking
on a project involving embedded processors, spoke to a Uni professor
to get 1 or 2 of his better students to work on the project to qualify
for their industrial training. This friend is a very experianced
design engineer that has worked for >15 years in multinational
semiconductor companies, certainly used to leading project teams. The
usual briefing tookplace, outlining of targets/goals, providing
documentation and h/w (PCBoard for microprocesor development...) and
after 2 week on non-productivity, the student wss asked whay hasn't
he/she produced anything? The answer was - "...you didn't show me how
to do it!" Then at the end of the industrial training, the guy had the
cheek to ask, why he was'nt given a glowing report?!

So aren't our edu system producing mushrooms? Mushrooms who think they
are very important and that the world owes them a living?

And if this a better student, then what are the 'not so good ones' like?

And exams,... well passing an exam only shows that that particular
person is good at passing exams, not neccesarily his actual skills.
Especially when its not evaluated with other types of work... And now
we have projects... ah another anectdote, this is from a Uni near to
cyberjaya (students, take note if you want good project papers...)
some of the students are pooling money together to hire Indian
programmers working in Cyberjaya to write their projects for them!
Lecturers found out when otherwise mediocre students were turning out
'professional quality' code in their projects!

Yes Malaysians are good at 'gaming' the system.


 And now a pop quiz question, to all the OSS readers out there...

" If you are interviewing and employing programmers, and you had 2
final candidates, 1 has a MSc degree and the other has done a Google
SoC (Summer of Code), and assuming they don't have bad personal habits
except for working strange hours... who would you choose?

I'll pick the Google SoC guy anytime, the rest agree? [1] [2]

But, do the students know that?
Does the educators know that?
Do the policy makers know that? ....

I believe that this bit of knowledge falls into the "you have no
idea...." category that Red1 mentioned before.

So after all this ranting, what positive suggestions? Well, after a
discussion with local grads, some new some not so new, I've come to
the conclusion that it boils down to 2 things:

1. market supply & demand

The educators and edu system 'think' we need graduates with a certain
skillset, the students think the market wants a certain skillset, so
the whole system is geared to churn out graduates with those
skillsets. But everybody forgot to ask what the industry/market wants!
Well of course the commercial vendors like MS, Oracle, Cisco is more
than willing to tell them, but nobody asked the industry....

2. gov policy

They have a target to meet, churn out as many IT Engineers as
possible, to meet the projected job demands of our upcoming booming
Silicon Valley. Nevermind about the quality....

(maybe this is the MS-Way, release a buggy product, dominate the
market, then fix the bugs with service packs..., nope doesn't work for
IT engineers... those bugs, poor knowledge & skills, are impossible to
fix, (let alone expectations...) and there is no monopoly! just import
programmers from India!). Hence we have a MSC populated by foreign
knowledge workers and unemployed IT guys by the boatload


So the solution is quite obvious....

I think we in the OSS community do represent a segment of the
makrket/industry. We have to let both students & educators know what
is needed by us,  the industry[3].

1. Hence programs with Unis & students are a good thing, which i
notice are now happening.
    But I feel we must also 'draw in' the academic staff and the policy makers.

2. Let students know, that OSS is a viable alternative. That being a
technopreneur, is viable (with MDEC,MOSTI funds now available...) and
this segment of employment is growing, rapidly.

3. Educate Students and Lecturers on what are the required skillsets,
more so when educators havn't been in industry! (like they say..
"Those who can, do, those who can't, teach!" my bad;-)

(when Python.my ran a course for UMP, it was pretty well attended by
students, but the lecturers were nowhere to be seen... perhaps they
already knew Python, and found no need to seek new knowledge? Or
perhaps they were 'proffessional' lecturers and we are not, nevermind
that each of us has >!0 in industry? I would have loved to talk to
them.)

 4. Engage with edu policy makers, in Uni in MOE (Min of Edu), let
them know what are skillsets needed, and these are independent of
whether its OSS or not.
Also educate them that OSS is the fastest growing segment of our industry.

5. Engage with Gov. IT Champions/facillitators (MDEC, MAMPU). Run
programs that upgrade skills and place value on skills. Perhaps OSDC
can organise run programming competiotions, web-design competitions,
organise courses (The Java one is a good thing, but have it also for
Python, PHP, Ruby...) Have more technical exchanges, ie: like
lightning talks (short talks), BarCamp like events (but don't let the
marketeers dominate) etc...
and have them more often, not just once a year!

6. Engage the Industry.
Organise with the Gov. Champions, talks/programs aimed at private
sector, especially SMEs/SMIs, where OSS can make an impact (less cost,
exploit the BSA Anti-Piracy Campaign)
 Again run it often...
Also work with Unis and Gov/Private Sector with and make/have a
program for job placement for part-time or industrial training.

7. Have a mentoring Program
Coordinate, manage projects whereby senior experienced OSS guys can
mentor more enthusiastic students on their industrial traning projects
etc... ala Google SoC...



[1] Pls don't get me wrong, I have nothing against MSc (Maybe just a
Msian MSc), but a SoC project under a good mentor delivers a better
skill set for someone I'd like to hire.

[2] Of course if I'm hiring for a MS Shop, then the answer may be
different...;-)

[3] "teach the principles, not the product" - The generic skillsets we
seek is not different from the proprietry SW guys... its not a
question of language or platforms but basic skillsets. ie: logical
thinking/problem solving skills, understanding methodology,
algorithms, tools (RDBMS, OS, languages). The point here is Unis
should be teaching principles and practical applications of
principlas, NOT specific products(.NET or Oracle, etc...). If a person
understands the principals - say of programming, it can be applied to
any language.


* Disclaimer, these rants are strictly my own opinion and not those of
the 'owners' and readers of the lists.

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Mohammed Firdaus
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Swee Meng,
> Can't be as bad as a learning institution at TPM.......
> Thanks,
> Mohammed Firdaus
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:55 AM, sweemeng ng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> DId I tell you that when they say real world. Many lecturer never in one..
>> It is in university when I heard comments that this is not used, or that
>> is not used.
>>
>> Place of learning my foot. It is not even on the priority list. Exam is,
>> learning is not. In fact learning useful thing not in exam, is way below in
>> priority. School politics got much bigger attention
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:52 AM, sweemeng ng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> The real issue is, what research, there is no research....
>>>
>>> There is more to CS than Enterprise Software. Though it is equally worth
>>> studying
>>> And there is many interesting stuff in computer science. program
>>> validation, concurrency, AI, kernel level design, etc. Even application of
>>> existing theory is fascinating. Nope, none is happening.
>>>
>>> I am hoping to learn to understand how OS works, or how to write a
>>> compiler when go to university. Instead I just got to learn something that I
>>> already learned before I got into uni.
>>>
>>> University that I know of, just turn into a vocational school, and it
>>> don't even do a proper job at that.
>>>
>>> SAD, real sad
>>>
>>> 2009/9/26 red1 <[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>> Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
>>>> > bro red1..
>>>> >
>>>> > lupakan Uni lain.. masih ada AeU.. sekurang-kurangnya.. utk buat masa
>>>> > ini.. janganlah takut seketika sahaja... hehehe
>>>>
>>>> AeU, entah keberapa rankingnya kerana baru je terbit.. tapi ada lagi
>>>> berita baik. Lagi sebuah IPTS ingin turut melakukan research centre
>>>> untuk ADempiere. Acheh pula mungkin buka peluang universiti pertamanya
>>>> berdasarkan FOSS. Semua masih dalam berbincangan. Akan dihebohkan
>>>> sekiranya jadi.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> >
>



--
#-------
regds,

Boh Heong, Yap

--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
Join Open Source Developers Club Malaysia http://www.osdc.my/

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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

Mohd Hidzuan Zainul Hashim
nice taught .. bravo!

The only thing that crossed my mind after I read ur opinion is migrate to Europe.. Why? To get a better exposure and education for my kids.. :-D

(after I get married lah.. )
...............................................................
To follow the path, look to the master,
follow the master, walk with the master,
see through the master, become the master.

Selasih Net Enterprise
"we never sleep, we just park our head"


Sent from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia


On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Boh Yap <[hidden email]> wrote:

hi all,

all this debate on the quality of our esteemed universities has been
simmering for so long I just can't refuse not to join in... ;-)

Warning: sarcasm, satire, wit, true facts and logic are all mixed in
here... let's have some healthy debate!

(I am also reposting this to the python.my list, its too good to be
left to waste...

UM used to be good, that was in the days when Msia only had a handful
on Unis, USM, SPM, UKM... Now we have ...how many? 20, 30?...

Yes, edu especally Uni has gone down the tubes in Msia, in that
respect we're becoming a 'banana republic'... when I was Philipines
quite a few years ago, they have a 'University' in a block of shop
house, I thought that was pretty uncool, but then now we have that in
Malaysia. That's progress!

Why that's uncool, well for one thing, you cannot provide a conducive
knowledge-based  environment. How inspiring can it be staring at
another drab building, and hanging out at the local mamak to discuss a
momentous world class technopreneureal idea.... I think not. Hey you
can't even find a basement to start off your project in...  (like
Google, Yahoo, Youtube...)

Besides shophouse don't make good locations for data-centres,
supercomputing centre (lousy powersupply and cooling), you can't have
a genetics lab (bio hazard!) or a nuclear research lab (nope I don't
think you can fit your heavy-particle collider in here..)... so forget
about 'high' tech. So such a facillities can only be a 'low' tech
'degree mils', churn out as many blur (as sotong) grads as you can.

The other problem of course is you have blur educators (by this I
don't only lay the blame only on lecturers and academic staff but also
those in charge of education policy... they are the ones who determine
the agenda!) Also as someone pointed out, our professors don't publish
papers, well we can't really blame them. The shophouse scenario is not
very inspirational, and they can't have a fancy lab in those tiny
buildings anyway. Also I guess there are also no equivalent peer
reviewed publications like Science  and Nature (where world famous
professors  and Nobel Laurettes publish their papers) in Bahasa
Malaysia...

Talking about 'frightening' scenarios, when visiting a friend who is a
 Assc. Professor in a local Uni, I was handed a syllabus and asked to
guess what year was it for. A quick glance through it and I said
perhaps pre-U or 1st year. Nope, wrong he said, its 3rd Year! Thats
how low standards are! So I asked surely you are unhappy about this
level, can't you teach at a higher level, no, was his reply, the
Lembaga Accredition Negara sets the policy and everyone has to
follow... and that's the standard!

Duh... what does a bunch of bureaucrats know about Comp Sc. Not a lot
it seems!  (this happened abt 3 yrs ago). Now it seems its a bit
better, but they are letting Microsoft determine the syllabus,
groan...

Red1 hit the nail on the spot, a Uni is to 'Cari Ilmu' not 'Cari
makan' (for both students and lecturers!) but we have since lost the
ideal. Also, our edu system are like mushroom farms - "keep the
students/mushrooms in the dark and feed them a lot of sh*t". So all
this spoon-feeding produces a bunch of workers who are totlly without
initiative and waiting to be told what to do.

Let me back that up with another anecdote, a friend who was embarking
on a project involving embedded processors, spoke to a Uni professor
to get 1 or 2 of his better students to work on the project to qualify
for their industrial training. This friend is a very experianced
design engineer that has worked for >15 years in multinational
semiconductor companies, certainly used to leading project teams. The
usual briefing tookplace, outlining of targets/goals, providing
documentation and h/w (PCBoard for microprocesor development...) and
after 2 week on non-productivity, the student wss asked whay hasn't
he/she produced anything? The answer was - "...you didn't show me how
to do it!" Then at the end of the industrial training, the guy had the
cheek to ask, why he was'nt given a glowing report?!

So aren't our edu system producing mushrooms? Mushrooms who think they
are very important and that the world owes them a living?

And if this a better student, then what are the 'not so good ones' like?

And exams,... well passing an exam only shows that that particular
person is good at passing exams, not neccesarily his actual skills.
Especially when its not evaluated with other types of work... And now
we have projects... ah another anectdote, this is from a Uni near to
cyberjaya (students, take note if you want good project papers...)
some of the students are pooling money together to hire Indian
programmers working in Cyberjaya to write their projects for them!
Lecturers found out when otherwise mediocre students were turning out
'professional quality' code in their projects!

Yes Malaysians are good at 'gaming' the system.


 And now a pop quiz question, to all the OSS readers out there...

" If you are interviewing and employing programmers, and you had 2
final candidates, 1 has a MSc degree and the other has done a Google
SoC (Summer of Code), and assuming they don't have bad personal habits
except for working strange hours... who would you choose?

I'll pick the Google SoC guy anytime, the rest agree? [1] [2]

But, do the students know that?
Does the educators know that?
Do the policy makers know that? ....

I believe that this bit of knowledge falls into the "you have no
idea...." category that Red1 mentioned before.

So after all this ranting, what positive suggestions? Well, after a
discussion with local grads, some new some not so new, I've come to
the conclusion that it boils down to 2 things:

1. market supply & demand

The educators and edu system 'think' we need graduates with a certain
skillset, the students think the market wants a certain skillset, so
the whole system is geared to churn out graduates with those
skillsets. But everybody forgot to ask what the industry/market wants!
Well of course the commercial vendors like MS, Oracle, Cisco is more
than willing to tell them, but nobody asked the industry....

2. gov policy

They have a target to meet, churn out as many IT Engineers as
possible, to meet the projected job demands of our upcoming booming
Silicon Valley. Nevermind about the quality....

(maybe this is the MS-Way, release a buggy product, dominate the
market, then fix the bugs with service packs..., nope doesn't work for
IT engineers... those bugs, poor knowledge & skills, are impossible to
fix, (let alone expectations...) and there is no monopoly! just import
programmers from India!). Hence we have a MSC populated by foreign
knowledge workers and unemployed IT guys by the boatload


So the solution is quite obvious....

I think we in the OSS community do represent a segment of the
makrket/industry. We have to let both students & educators know what
is needed by us,  the industry[3].

1. Hence programs with Unis & students are a good thing, which i
notice are now happening.
   But I feel we must also 'draw in' the academic staff and the policy makers.

2. Let students know, that OSS is a viable alternative. That being a
technopreneur, is viable (with MDEC,MOSTI funds now available...) and
this segment of employment is growing, rapidly.

3. Educate Students and Lecturers on what are the required skillsets,
more so when educators havn't been in industry! (like they say..
"Those who can, do, those who can't, teach!" my bad;-)

(when Python.my ran a course for UMP, it was pretty well attended by
students, but the lecturers were nowhere to be seen... perhaps they
already knew Python, and found no need to seek new knowledge? Or
perhaps they were 'proffessional' lecturers and we are not, nevermind
that each of us has >!0 in industry? I would have loved to talk to
them.)

 4. Engage with edu policy makers, in Uni in MOE (Min of Edu), let
them know what are skillsets needed, and these are independent of
whether its OSS or not.
Also educate them that OSS is the fastest growing segment of our industry.

5. Engage with Gov. IT Champions/facillitators (MDEC, MAMPU). Run
programs that upgrade skills and place value on skills. Perhaps OSDC
can organise run programming competiotions, web-design competitions,
organise courses (The Java one is a good thing, but have it also for
Python, PHP, Ruby...) Have more technical exchanges, ie: like
lightning talks (short talks), BarCamp like events (but don't let the
marketeers dominate) etc...
and have them more often, not just once a year!

6. Engage the Industry.
Organise with the Gov. Champions, talks/programs aimed at private
sector, especially SMEs/SMIs, where OSS can make an impact (less cost,
exploit the BSA Anti-Piracy Campaign)
 Again run it often...
Also work with Unis and Gov/Private Sector with and make/have a
program for job placement for part-time or industrial training.

7. Have a mentoring Program
Coordinate, manage projects whereby senior experienced OSS guys can
mentor more enthusiastic students on their industrial traning projects
etc... ala Google SoC...



[1] Pls don't get me wrong, I have nothing against MSc (Maybe just a
Msian MSc), but a SoC project under a good mentor delivers a better
skill set for someone I'd like to hire.

[2] Of course if I'm hiring for a MS Shop, then the answer may be
different...;-)

[3] "teach the principles, not the product" - The generic skillsets we
seek is not different from the proprietry SW guys... its not a
question of language or platforms but basic skillsets. ie: logical
thinking/problem solving skills, understanding methodology,
algorithms, tools (RDBMS, OS, languages). The point here is Unis
should be teaching principles and practical applications of
principlas, NOT specific products(.NET or Oracle, etc...). If a person
understands the principals - say of programming, it can be applied to
any language.


* Disclaimer, these rants are strictly my own opinion and not those of
the 'owners' and readers of the lists.

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Mohammed Firdaus
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Swee Meng,
> Can't be as bad as a learning institution at TPM.......
> Thanks,
> Mohammed Firdaus
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:55 AM, sweemeng ng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> DId I tell you that when they say real world. Many lecturer never in one..
>> It is in university when I heard comments that this is not used, or that
>> is not used.
>>
>> Place of learning my foot. It is not even on the priority list. Exam is,
>> learning is not. In fact learning useful thing not in exam, is way below in
>> priority. School politics got much bigger attention
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:52 AM, sweemeng ng <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> The real issue is, what research, there is no research....
>>>
>>> There is more to CS than Enterprise Software. Though it is equally worth
>>> studying
>>> And there is many interesting stuff in computer science. program
>>> validation, concurrency, AI, kernel level design, etc. Even application of
>>> existing theory is fascinating. Nope, none is happening.
>>>
>>> I am hoping to learn to understand how OS works, or how to write a
>>> compiler when go to university. Instead I just got to learn something that I
>>> already learned before I got into uni.
>>>
>>> University that I know of, just turn into a vocational school, and it
>>> don't even do a proper job at that.
>>>
>>> SAD, real sad
>>>
>>> 2009/9/26 red1 <[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>> Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
>>>> > bro red1..
>>>> >
>>>> > lupakan Uni lain.. masih ada AeU.. sekurang-kurangnya.. utk buat masa
>>>> > ini.. janganlah takut seketika sahaja... hehehe
>>>>
>>>> AeU, entah keberapa rankingnya kerana baru je terbit.. tapi ada lagi
>>>> berita baik. Lagi sebuah IPTS ingin turut melakukan research centre
>>>> untuk ADempiere. Acheh pula mungkin buka peluang universiti pertamanya
>>>> berdasarkan FOSS. Semua masih dalam berbincangan. Akan dihebohkan
>>>> sekiranya jadi.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> >
>



--
#-------
regds,

Boh Heong, Yap




--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

red1

Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
> nice taught .. bravo!
>
> The only thing that crossed my mind after I read ur opinion is migrate
> to Europe.. Why? To get a better exposure and education for my kids.. :-D
>
> (after I get married lah.. )
Maybe too late... 2012 coming... when i was in the 90s (age 30s) i
wanted to musafir around the world, once i become a millionaire as i was
earning 50k per mth in 1998-2000. But the dotcom bust came in 2001 and i
had a huge debt. So i decided to still musafir but go thru 'cara orang
susah' (itula.. masa ada wang bagi alasan..)

I travelled by boat, train, bus, to Medan, Beras Tagi, Pekan Baru,
Jakarta, Bandung, Surabaya for 1.5 months. I learnt alot about
indonesia, its people, culture and good points and makes me reflect more
about my own home country.

So don't wait. AirAsia has very low prices. Try from China to Filipinas
all cheap places but great exposure. But go not as tourists, but musafir
(wayfarer). Start with niat and doa. You shall find what you seek for.

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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

Mohd Hidzuan Zainul Hashim
after this ni bro... have to finish what already started... (AeU not finish yet maa)

Start with niat and doa. You shall find what you seek for.

Insya Allah.. Ameen.
...............................................................
To follow the path, look to the master,
follow the master, walk with the master,
see through the master, become the master.

Selasih Net Enterprise
"we never sleep, we just park our head"


Sent from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia


On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 12:50 PM, red1 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Mohd Hidzuan wrote:
> nice taught .. bravo!
>
> The only thing that crossed my mind after I read ur opinion is migrate
> to Europe.. Why? To get a better exposure and education for my kids.. :-D
>
> (after I get married lah.. )
Maybe too late... 2012 coming... when i was in the 90s (age 30s) i
wanted to musafir around the world, once i become a millionaire as i was
earning 50k per mth in 1998-2000. But the dotcom bust came in 2001 and i
had a huge debt. So i decided to still musafir but go thru 'cara orang
susah' (itula.. masa ada wang bagi alasan..)

I travelled by boat, train, bus, to Medan, Beras Tagi, Pekan Baru,
Jakarta, Bandung, Surabaya for 1.5 months. I learnt alot about
indonesia, its people, culture and good points and makes me reflect more
about my own home country.

So don't wait. AirAsia has very low prices. Try from China to Filipinas
all cheap places but great exposure. But go not as tourists, but musafir
(wayfarer). Start with niat and doa. You shall find what you seek for.




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Re: We are not in the top 30 unis of Asia!

IzharFirdaus
In reply to this post by Boh Yap

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 9:47 AM, Boh Yap <[hidden email]> wrote:
[..snip..]

>
> Red1 hit the nail on the spot, a Uni is to 'Cari Ilmu' not 'Cari
> makan' (for both students and lecturers!) but we have since lost the
> ideal. Also, our edu system are like mushroom farms - "keep the
> students/mushrooms in the dark and feed them a lot of sh*t". So all
> this spoon-feeding produces a bunch of workers who are totlly without
> initiative and waiting to be told what to do.
>
> Let me back that up with another anecdote, a friend who was embarking
> on a project involving embedded processors, spoke to a Uni professor
> to get 1 or 2 of his better students to work on the project to qualify
> for their industrial training. This friend is a very experianced
> design engineer that has worked for >15 years in multinational
> semiconductor companies, certainly used to leading project teams. The
> usual briefing tookplace, outlining of targets/goals, providing
> documentation and h/w (PCBoard for microprocesor development...) and
> after 2 week on non-productivity, the student wss asked whay hasn't
> he/she produced anything? The answer was - "...you didn't show me how
> to do it!" Then at the end of the industrial training, the guy had the
> cheek to ask, why he was'nt given a glowing report?!

+++10000

Couldnt disagree less in this point .. been seeing it everywhere, back
in uni, and even elsewhere..  people are waiting for someone else to
teach/help them do, waiting for methods/ways/guidance from another
person, while not trying to poke it directly and find their ways.

[..snip..]

>
> Yes Malaysians are good at 'gaming' the system.

<sarcasm>Ain't we've been doing that for centuries? :P</sarcasm>

>
>  And now a pop quiz question, to all the OSS readers out there...
>
> " If you are interviewing and employing programmers, and you had 2
> final candidates, 1 has a MSc degree and the other has done a Google
> SoC (Summer of Code), and assuming they don't have bad personal habits
> except for working strange hours... who would you choose?
>
> I'll pick the Google SoC guy anytime, the rest agree? [1] [2]
>
> But, do the students know that?
> Does the educators know that?
> Do the policy makers know that? ....
>
> I believe that this bit of knowledge falls into the "you have no
> idea...." category that Red1 mentioned before.
>
> So after all this ranting, what positive suggestions? Well, after a
> discussion with local grads, some new some not so new, I've come to
> the conclusion that it boils down to 2 things:
>
> 1. market supply & demand
>
> The educators and edu system 'think' we need graduates with a certain
> skillset, the students think the market wants a certain skillset, so
> the whole system is geared to churn out graduates with those
> skillsets. But everybody forgot to ask what the industry/market wants!
> Well of course the commercial vendors like MS, Oracle, Cisco is more
> than willing to tell them, but nobody asked the industry....

IMO, they see the market demand from data, but the data was supplied
from the perspective fed to them by the Corporations. And of course,
these profit making corporations will usually feed them with
information that will help them to remain monopolizing the market.

>
> 2. gov policy
>
> They have a target to meet, churn out as many IT Engineers as
> possible, to meet the projected job demands of our upcoming booming
> Silicon Valley. Nevermind about the quality....
>
> (maybe this is the MS-Way, release a buggy product, dominate the
> market, then fix the bugs with service packs..., nope doesn't work for
> IT engineers... those bugs, poor knowledge & skills, are impossible to
> fix, (let alone expectations...) and there is no monopoly! just import
> programmers from India!). Hence we have a MSC populated by foreign
> knowledge workers and unemployed IT guys by the boatload
>
>
> So the solution is quite obvious....
>
> I think we in the OSS community do represent a segment of the
> makrket/industry. We have to let both students & educators know what
> is needed by us,  the industry[3].

We do, however in .My the OSS community mainly consist of small/medium
companies rather than large MNC. From what I'm seeing, many higher ups
would rather hear from foreign MNC rather than local SME (the "oh they
are making bigger money, so what they say should be better" mindset),
and to our demise, the preferred MNC tend to be MS, SAP, Oracle, etc.
I dont see much of RedHat/Novell around, so we are left with
communities from local SME.

>
> 1. Hence programs with Unis & students are a good thing, which i
> notice are now happening.
>    But I feel we must also 'draw in' the academic staff and the policy makers.
>
> 2. Let students know, that OSS is a viable alternative. That being a
> technopreneur, is viable (with MDEC,MOSTI funds now available...) and
> this segment of employment is growing, rapidly.
>
> 3. Educate Students and Lecturers on what are the required skillsets,
> more so when educators havn't been in industry! (like they say..
> "Those who can, do, those who can't, teach!" my bad;-)
>
> (when Python.my ran a course for UMP, it was pretty well attended by
> students, but the lecturers were nowhere to be seen... perhaps they
> already knew Python, and found no need to seek new knowledge? Or
> perhaps they were 'proffessional' lecturers and we are not, nevermind
> that each of us has >!0 in industry? I would have loved to talk to
> them.)

I had 1 (or was it 2) lecturer came when I did a quick Python crash
course back in UTP before I graduated. So I guess theres still some
hope there. However, that lecturer was a causasian from the EE dept ..
>.< .. /me wonders where the IT local lecturers.

>
>  4. Engage with edu policy makers, in Uni in MOE (Min of Edu), let
> them know what are skillsets needed, and these are independent of
> whether its OSS or not.
> Also educate them that OSS is the fastest growing segment of our industry.
>
> 5. Engage with Gov. IT Champions/facillitators (MDEC, MAMPU). Run
> programs that upgrade skills and place value on skills. Perhaps OSDC
> can organise run programming competiotions, web-design competitions,
> organise courses (The Java one is a good thing, but have it also for
> Python, PHP, Ruby...) Have more technical exchanges, ie: like
> lightning talks (short talks), BarCamp like events (but don't let the
> marketeers dominate) etc...
> and have them more often, not just once a year!
>
> 6. Engage the Industry.
> Organise with the Gov. Champions, talks/programs aimed at private
> sector, especially SMEs/SMIs, where OSS can make an impact (less cost,
> exploit the BSA Anti-Piracy Campaign)
>  Again run it often...
> Also work with Unis and Gov/Private Sector with and make/have a
> program for job placement for part-time or industrial training.
>
> 7. Have a mentoring Program
> Coordinate, manage projects whereby senior experienced OSS guys can
> mentor more enthusiastic students on their industrial traning projects
> etc... ala Google SoC...

anybody want to be mentored on some technologies in Fedora/Python ..
poke me .. but note that my method is quite spartan :P


--
Mohd Izhar Firdaus Bin Ismail
Amano Hikaru  天野晃 「あまの ひかる」
Fedora Malaysia Contributor & Ambassador
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MohdIzharFirdaus
http://blog.kagesenshi.org
92C2 B295 B40B B3DC 6866  5011 5BD2 584A 8A5D 7331

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